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Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? - Religion - Nairaland

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Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Daejumong(m): 1:24pm On Apr 01
Many Apostles in Nigeria in recent time have highlighted the need to be careful with the teachings of Paul and that there are some areas they feel he contradicted Jesus.

Some people believe Apostle Paul preached a chauvinistic and misogynistic message unlike Jesus who placed men and women on the same pedestal.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul expressly forbade women from speaking in church and required them to be submissive: “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

In 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Paul declared: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”

Jesus however made women feel loved and appreciated in a patriarchal society like Israel. He had female followers , he had his feet bathed with expensive perfume by a woman, he saved an adulteress from being stoned publicly and also sat at the well with a philandering woman.
He also appeared first to Mary Magdalene( John 20: 17/18) after His resurrection and gave her a message for the apostles, making her an apostle to the apostles and the first evangelist!

I am happy the church has stuck to the example of Christ by allowing women speak in church, evangelise and become Pastors . I believe the patriarchy in Israel then might have influenced Apostle Paul’s teachings.
We are all same in the presence of God and serving or preaching God is not the exclusive preserve of any gender.

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Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by immortalcrown(m): 1:26pm On Apr 01
The same haters of Paul are against the idea of women heading homes and being richer than husbands.

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Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Amotolongbo(f): 1:35pm On Apr 01
Paul was just a character invented by the Roman to control the people
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 2:11pm On Apr 01
Daejumong:
Many Apostles in Nigeria in recent time have highlighted the need to be careful with the teachings of Paul and that there are some areas they feel he contradicted Jesus. Some people believe Apostle Paul preached a chauvinistic and misogynistic message unlike Jesus who placed men and women on the same pedestal.
For example, in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul expressly forbade women from speaking in church and required them to be submissive: “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
The "church" described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 is instead a reference to a general gathering of Jewish people — both those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and maybe those who do. You would know this from the details contained in the statements made by Paul regarding the gatherings, particularly his many suggestions regarding prophets and prophecies. undecided
26 So, brothers and sisters, what should you do? When you meet together, one person has a song, another has a teaching, and another has a new truth from God. One person speaks in a different language, and another interprets that language. The purpose of whatever you do should be to help everyone grow stronger in faith.
27 When you meet together, if anyone speaks to the group in a different language, it should be only two or no more than three people who do this. And they should speak one after the other. And someone else should interpret what they say.
28 But if there is no interpreter, then anyone who speaks in a different language should be quiet in the church meeting. They should speak only to themselves and to God.
29 And only two or three prophets should speak. The others should judge what they say.
30 And if a message from God comes to someone who is sitting, the first speaker should be quiet.
31 You can all prophesy one after the other. This way everyone can be taught and encouraged.
32 The spirits of prophets are under the control of the prophets themselves.
33 God is not a God of confusion but a God of peace. This is the rule for all the meetings of God’s people.
34 The women should keep quiet in these church meetings. They are not allowed to speak out but should be under authority, as the Law of Moses says.
35 If there is something they want to know, they should ask their own husbands at home. It is shameful for a woman to speak up like that in the church meeting.
36 God’s teaching did not come from you, and you are not the only ones who have received it.
37 If you think you are a prophet or that you have a spiritual gift, you should understand that what I am writing to you is the Lord’s command.
38 If you do not accept this, you will not be accepted.
39 So my brothers and sisters, continue to give your attention to prophesying. And don’t stop anyone from using the gift of speaking in different languages.
40 But everything should be done in a way that is right and orderly. - 1 Corinthians 14 vs 26 - 46
So, if you closely examine what Paul said in the above passage, it becomes clear, that the church He mentioned in this case was not a gathering of believers or followers of Jesus Christ but rather a gathering that consisted of children of Isreal – sinners and non-sinners alike — to whom the Spirit of Prophesy promised by God to all the young men and women in the land at the time had descended upon - Joel 2 vs 28 - 31. In His Gospel, Jesus Christ made clear that He was the last prophet sent by God to the people of Israel. And it is important to note that unlike the God of Israel —YHWH —who declared in His Law that He would send prophets out among His people, Israel, in His Name, Jesus Christ never instituted an office of prophets in the Kingdom of God. This means that all the prophets — including the spirit of prophets proclaimed even in the book of Acts belonged not to the Kingdom of God but to the Old Law of Moses.

“After this, I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will have dreams,
and your young men will see visions. In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on servants, both men and women. - Joel 2 vs 28 - 29


The spirit of prophecy came upon all young men and women— including those who were already born-again at the time — in the land during the last days as prophesied by Joel and as such there were gatherings where people came together to exchange information on messages revealed to them. Paul stressed that all those in attendance of such meetings ought to honor the Law of Moses during those gatherings because they were concerned with issues of the Old traditions and not the New. lipsrsealed
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Emusan(m): 2:15pm On Apr 01
Daejumong:
Many Apostles in Nigeria in recent time have highlighted the need to be careful with the teachings of Paul and that there are some areas they feel he contradicted Jesus.

Let me only address this part.

Jesus who called Apostle Paul Himself didn't discover and correct all what Paul taught in contradiction to His own teachings but left it for Nigerian Apostles to discover these erroneous teachings thousand years later.

That's strange!

Well, if you think Jesus who called Paul didn't know about all his teachings. Then you don't have any options than to agree that Paul was never called by Jesus Christ.

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Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 2:18pm On Apr 01
Daejumong:
In 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Paul declared: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”
The information contained in 1 Timothy 2 does come off as sexist since the reference seems to be Jesus Christ. Here we see Paul, asserting, not the Law, but his own bias. undecided
8 I want the men everywhere to pray. Men who lift their hands in prayer must be devoted to God and pleasing to him. They must be men who keep themselves from getting angry and having arguments.
9 And I want the women to make themselves attractive in the right way. Their clothes should be sensible and appropriate. They should not draw attention to themselves with fancy hairstyles or gold jewelry or pearls or expensive clothes.
10 But they should make themselves attractive by the good things they do. That is more appropriate for women who say they are devoted to God.
11 A woman should learn while listening quietly and being completely willing to obey.
12 I don’t allow a woman to teach a man or tell him what to do. She must listen quietly,
13 because Adam was made first. Eve was made later.
14 Also, Adam was not the one who was tricked.[a] It was the woman who was tricked and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved in their work of having children. They will be saved if they continue to live in faith, love, and holiness with sensible behavior. - 1 Timothy 2 vs 8 - 15
Jesus Christ was emphatic that there exists equality between men and women in the Kingdom of God - Matthew 23 vs 8 - 10. undecided

Another problem with the claims made by Paul in the above passage is his proclamation at the end regarding the salvation of the woman folk.
14 Also, Adam was not the one who was tricked.[a] It was the woman who was tricked and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved in their work of having children. They will be saved if they continue to live in faith, love, and holiness with sensible behavior. - 1 Timothy 2 vs 8 - 15
These claims have nothing to do with Jesus Christ who instead called on the women of the time to cry for themselves and their children given there was no salvation to be had in simply being a woman or having children. Jesus Christ proclaimed that God's blessings belonged to those of them who had no children to care for — lived as Eunuchs.
27 A large crowd followed Jesus. Some of the women were sad and crying. They felt sorry for him.
28 But Jesus turned and said to the women, “Women of Jerusalem, don’t cry for me. Cry for yourselves and for your children too.
29 The time is coming when people will say, ‘The women who cannot have babies are the ones God has blessed. It’s really a blessing that they have no children to care for.’
30 Then the people will say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us!’ They will say to the hills, ‘Cover us!’
[b]31
If this can happen to someone who is good, what will happen to those who are guilty?[c]” - Luke 23 vs 27 -30
The time Jesus Christ spoke of arrived in the same generation Paul lived in. By whose authority did Paul assert, in his letter to Timothy, an idea that was contrary to that stated by Jesus Christ who came before him? undecided

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Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Emusan(m): 2:18pm On Apr 01
Kobojunkie:
The "church" described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 is instead a reference to a general gathering of Jewish people — both those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and maybe those who do. You would know this from the details contained in the statements made by Paul regarding the gatherings, particularly his many suggestions regarding prophets and prophecies. undecided
So, if you closely examine what Paul said in the above passage, it becomes clear, that the church He mentioned in this case was not a gathering of believers or followers of Jesus Christ but rather a gathering that consisted of children of Isreal – sinners and non-sinners alike — to whom the Spirit of Prophesy promised by God to all the young men and women in the land at the time had descended upon - Joel 2 vs 28 - 31. In His Gospel, Jesus Christ made clear that He was the last prophet sent by God to the people of Israel. And it is important to note that unlike the God of Israel —YHWH —who declared in His Law that He would send prophets out among His people, Israel, in His Name, Jesus Christ never instituted an office of prophets in the Kingdom of God. This means that all the prophets — including the spirit of prophets proclaimed even in the book of Acts belonged not to the Kingdom of God but to the Old Law of Moses.

“After this, I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will have dreams,
and your young men will see visions. In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on servants, both men and women. - Joel 2 vs 28 - 29


The spirit of prophecy came upon all young men and women— including those who were already born-again at the time — in the land during the last days as prophesied by Joel and as such there were gatherings where people came together to exchange information on messages revealed to them. Paul stressed that all those in attendance of such meetings ought to honor the Law of Moses during those gatherings because they were concerned with issues of the Old traditions and not the New. lipsrsealed

But you're also in support of the claim that Paul actually contradicted Jesus Christ in some of his teachings, so what is this defence for?

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Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 2:22pm On Apr 01
Emusan:
But you're also in support of the claim that Paul actually contradicted Jesus Christ in some of his teachings, so what is this defence for?
Defence? I am not here to lie against the person of Paul but to state the facts. I am only interested in the facts and the fact is many of his claims are contradictory. And Yes, the statement he made in 1 Timothy 2 contradicts Jesus Christ. So what is your point? undecided
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Emusan(m): 2:30pm On Apr 01
Kobojunkie:
Defence? I am not here to lie against the person of Paul but to state the facts. I am only interested in the facts and the fact is many of his claims are contradictory. And Yes, the statement he made in 1 Timothy 2 contradicts Jesus Christ. So what is your point? undecided

What of the statement in 1 Corin 14, does it contradict 1 Tim 2?

You elucidate more on the OP using1 Corin 14 to defend Paul or of what purpose is your post then if not for defence?

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Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 2:46pm On Apr 01
Emusan:
What of the statement in 1 Corin 14, does it contradict 1 Tim 2? You elucidate more on the OP using1 Corin 14 to defend Paul or of what purpose is your post then if not for defence?
You are not making any sense. Please ignore me if you have nothing tangible to the discussion. undecided
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Steep(m): 3:03pm On Apr 01
Daejumong:
Many Apostles in Nigeria in recent time have highlighted the need to be careful with the teachings of Paul and that there are some areas they feel he contradicted Jesus.

Some people believe Apostle Paul preached a chauvinistic and misogynistic message unlike Jesus who placed men and women on the same pedestal.

For example, in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul expressly forbade women from speaking in church and required them to be submissive: “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

In 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Paul declared: “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.”

Jesus however made women feel loved and appreciated in a patriarchal society like Israel. He had female followers , he had his feet bathed with expensive perfume by a woman, he saved an adulteress from being stoned publicly and also sat at the well with a philandering woman.
He also appeared first to Mary Magdalene( John 20: 17/18) after His resurrection and gave her a message for the apostles, making her an apostle to the apostles and the first evangelist!

I am happy the church has stuck to the example of Christ by allowing women speak in church, evangelise and become Pastors . I believe the patriarchy in Israel then might have influenced Apostle Paul’s teachings.
We are all same in the presence of God and serving or preaching God is not the exclusive preserve of any gender.
Even Jesus Christ didn't have any woman among his twelve, so what are you talking about. You can't separate the teachings of Paul from that of Jesus christ, this is what Satanists are trying to do in other to corrupt the gospel.
When it comes to the church there is order, this order is not according o feminism or other worldly ideology it is according to God.
The order is God-Jesus-Man-woman.
A woman cannot become head over a man not in the church and neither in the family.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Emusan(m): 3:06pm On Apr 01
Kobojunkie:
You are not making any sense. Please ignore me if you have nothing tangible to the discussion. undecided

He couldn't answer my questions because that will expose her lies.

1 Like

Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by safarifarms(m): 10:32pm On May 01
Kobojunkie:
The "church" described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 14 is instead a reference to a general gathering of Jewish people — both those who do not believe in Jesus Christ and maybe those who do. You would know this from the details contained in the statements made by Paul regarding the gatherings, particularly his many suggestions regarding prophets and prophecies. undecided
So, if you closely examine what Paul said in the above passage, it becomes clear, that the church He mentioned in this case was not a gathering of believers or followers of Jesus Christ but rather a gathering that consisted of children of Isreal – sinners and non-sinners alike — to whom the Spirit of Prophesy promised by God to all the young men and women in the land at the time had descended upon - Joel 2 vs 28 - 31. In His Gospel, Jesus Christ made clear that He was the last prophet sent by God to the people of Israel. And it is important to note that unlike the God of Israel —YHWH —who declared in His Law that He would send prophets out among His people, Israel, in His Name, Jesus Christ never instituted an office of prophets in the Kingdom of God. This means that all the prophets — including the spirit of prophets proclaimed even in the book of Acts belonged not to the Kingdom of God but to the Old Law of Moses.

“After this, I will pour out my Spirit on all kinds of people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will have dreams,
and your young men will see visions. In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on servants, both men and women. - Joel 2 vs 28 - 29


The spirit of prophecy came upon all young men and women— including those who were already born-again at the time — in the land during the last days as prophesied by Joel and as such there were gatherings where people came together to exchange information on messages revealed to them. Paul stressed that all those in attendance of such meetings ought to honor the Law of Moses during those gatherings because they were concerned with issues of the Old traditions and not the New. lipsrsealed
I didn't know you are a bible enthusiast.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 10:50pm On May 01
safarifarms:

I didn't know you are a bible enthusiast.
I am not a Bible enthusiast but actually one who is a follower of Jesus Christ and not Religion. undecided
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by safarifarms(m): 10:55pm On May 01
I think you should also read 1 Timothy 2 from other translations.
Kobojunkie:
Defence? I am not here to lie against the person of Paul but to state the facts. I am only interested in the facts and the fact is many of his claims are contradictory. And Yes, the statement he made in 1 Timothy 2 contradicts Jesus Christ. So what is your point? undecided
1 Timothy 2 (Living Bible)
14 And it was not Adam who was fooled by Satan, but Eve, and sin was the result. 15 So God sent pain and suffering to women when their children are born, but he will save their souls if they trust in him, living quiet, good, and loving lives.

1 Timothy 2 (The Message)
11-15 I don’t let women take over and tell the men what to do. They should study to be quiet and obedient along with everyone else. Adam was made first, then Eve; woman was deceived first—our pioneer in sin!—with Adam right on her heels. On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve. But this salvation only comes to those who continue in faith, love, and holiness, gathering it all into maturity. You can depend on this.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by safarifarms(m): 10:55pm On May 01
Wow. Good to know.
Kobojunkie:
I am not a Bible enthusiast but actually one who is a follower of Jesus Christ and not Religion. undecided
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 11:30pm On May 01
safarifarms:
I think you should also read 1 Timothy 2 from other translations.
1 Timothy 2 (Living Bible)
14 And it was not Adam who was fooled by Satan, but Eve, and sin was the result.
15 So God sent pain and suffering to women when their children are born, but he will save their souls if they trust in him, living quiet, good, and loving lives.
1 Timothy 2 (The Message)
11-15 I don’t let women take over and tell the men what to do. They should study to be quiet and obedient along with everyone else. Adam was made first, then Eve; woman was deceived first—our pioneer in sin!—with Adam right on her heels. On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve. But this salvation only comes to those who continue in faith, love, and holiness, gathering it all into maturity. You can depend on this.
I guess you are referring to the expanded view included in The Message translation. Let's look at it from the Greek interlinear writings, please. undecided

Verses 11 & 12 both contravene Jesus Christ who instead said all men and all women in His Kingdom are to learn ONLY from HIm, the one and only Teacher in the Kingdom of God...
8 “But you must not be called ‘Teacher.’ You are all equal as brothers and sisters. You have only one Teacher.
9 And don’t call anyone on earth ‘Father.’ You have one Father. He is in heaven.
10 And you should not be called ‘Master.’ You have only one Master, the Messiah.
11 Whoever serves you like a servant is the greatest among you.
12 People who think they are better than others will be made humble. But people who humble themselves will be made great. - Matthew 23 vs 8 - 12
... and equally asserts that in the Kingdom of God, there can be only one Authority/Head over each one who belongs to Him.
24 “You cannot serve two masters at the same time. You will hate one and love the other, or you will be loyal to one and not care about the other. You cannot serve God and Money[d] at the same time. - Matthew 6 vs 24
Verses 13 through 15 seem, also, to suggest ideas that have no bearing on Jesus Christ and the salvation He spoke of.
27 A large crowd followed Jesus. Some of the women were sad and crying. They felt sorry for him.
28 But Jesus turned and said to the women, “Women of Jerusalem, don’t cry for me. Cry for yourselves and for your children too.
29 The time is coming when people will say, ‘The women who cannot have babies are the ones God has blessed. It’s really a blessing that they have no children to care for.’
30 Then the people will say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us!’ They will say to the hills, ‘Cover us!’
31 If this can happen to someone who is good, what will happen to those who are guilty? ” - Luke 24 vs 27 - 31
Childbearing was never a path to salvation for women under the Old Law as women remained cursed in childbearing even in that regime. In Jesus Christ, women are encouraged to forgo childbearing altogether to obtain blessings from God. So, what Paul said does not join at all with Jesus Christ. undecided

Now, of course, all of this that I have said here holds, if and only if, Paul's letter to Timothy was meant to be applied to his relationship with other believers of Jesus Christ only. It does not hold if Paul meant it as advice for Timothy when dealing with a general gathering of all Israelites where you find both believers and non-believers. But the fact that Paul mentioned salvation by Jesus Christ makes me question his reason. undecided

Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by safarifarms(m): 1:15am On May 02
Kobojunkie:
I guess you are referring to the expanded view included in The Message translation. Let's look at it from the Greek interlinear writings, please. undecided

Verses 11 & 12 both contravene Jesus Christ who instead said all men and all women in His Kingdom are to learn ONLY from HIm, the one and only Teacher in the Kingdom of God...
... and equally asserts that in the Kingdom of God, there can be only one Authority/Head over each one who belongs to Him.

Verses 13 through 15 seem, also, to suggest ideas that have no bearing on Jesus Christ and the salvation He spoke of.
Childbearing was never a path to salvation for women under the Old Law as women remained cursed in childbearing even in that regime. In Jesus Christ, women are encouraged to forgo childbearing altogether to obtain blessings from God. So, what Paul said does not join at all with Jesus Christ. undecided

Now, of course, all of this that I have said here holds, if and only if, Paul's letter to Timothy was meant to be applied to his relationship with other believers of Jesus Christ only. It does not hold if Paul meant it as advice for Timothy when dealing with a general gathering of all Israelites where you find both believers and non-believers. But the fact that Paul mentioned salvation by Jesus Christ makes me question his reason. undecided
How will you relate this with these other explicit teachings that see male and female as equal;

Gal. 3 Verses 28 to 29
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

1 Corinthians 11:11-12 (New International Version)
11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

The grammar used for the childbearing in connection with salvation (in the translations that are perceived to mean so) do not seem straight forward enough for me to believe it means what it's perceived to mean. For me I don't take doctrine from one scripture especially where many other scriptures hold a different view to that. In this case several other writings of Paul himself suggests otherwise in very clear terms unlike this one that looks a bit ambiguous (and interpreted differently by some translations). Paul's consistent teaching on Salvation is through grace and not of any works (not even child bearing which is ridiculous).

Concerning the issue of Women being treated as less than men, it appears it had to do with a particular situation of many false teachings from which he formed a personal opinion based on (well a flimsy scenario of) Eve being deceived. And he even made it obvious that it's his own opinion though he appeared to also encourage Timothy to do same.

But if you look at Romans 16:1-16 where he salutes coworkers in the faith, majority of them were women.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 2:06am On May 02
safarifarms:
How will you relate this with these other explicit teachings that see male and female as equal;
Gal. 3 Verses 28 to 29
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[29] And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
1 Corinthians 11:11-12 (New International Version)
11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman.
12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.
1. 1 Timothy 2 contains statements that are attributed to the person of Paul, right? So, it matters little that elsewhere it is found that the same Paul is written to have aligned himself with Christ as well. My stand remains that what is written in 1 Timothy 2 is without question not like that declared by Jesus Christ to be of His Kingdom. undecided

▶ Paul's thoughts, expressed in the passage here from Galatians 3, are in alignment with that proclaimed by Jesus Christ in His Gospel.
23 Before this faith came, the law held us as prisoners. We had no freedom until God showed us the way of faith that was coming.
24 I mean the law was the guardian in charge of us until Christ came. After he came, we could be made right with God through faith.
25 Now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law to be our guardian.
26-27 You were all baptized into Christ, and so you were all clothed with Christ. This shows that you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
28 Now, in Christ, it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Greek, a slave or free, male or female. You are all the same in Christ Jesus.
29 You belong to Christ, so you are Abraham’s descendants. You get all of God’s blessings because of the promise that God made to Abraham. - Galatians 3 vs 23 - 29

▶ However, Paul's thoughts expressed in the passage that is 1 Corinthians 11 vs 1 - 16 should be questioned because much of this reads like an attempt to insert whatever traditions existed among the people of the time into that which is of Jesus Christ, an act which is against God — sin.
2 I praise you because you remember me in all things. You follow closely the teachings I gave you.
3 But I want you to understand this: The head of every man is Christ. And the head of a woman is the man. And the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man who prophesies or prays with his head covered brings shame to his head.
5 But every woman who prays or prophesies should have her head covered. If her head is not covered, she brings shame to her head. Then she is the same as a woman who has her head shaved.
6 If a woman does not cover her head, it is the same as cutting off all her hair. But it is shameful for a woman to cut off her hair or to shave her head. So she should cover her head.
7 But a man should not cover his head, because he is made like God and is God’s glory. But woman is man’s glory.
8 Man did not come from woman. Woman came from man.
9 And man was not made for woman. Woman was made for man.
10 So that is why a woman should have her head covered with something that shows she is under authority. Also, she should do this because of the angels.
11 But in the Lord the woman needs the man, and the man needs the woman.
12 This is true because woman came from man, but also man is born from woman. Really, everything comes from God.
13 Decide this for yourselves: Is it right for a woman to pray to God without something on her head?
14 Even nature itself teaches you that wearing long hair is shameful for a man.
15 But wearing long hair is a woman’s honor. Long hair is given to the woman to cover her head.
16 Some people may still want to argue about this. But we and the churches of God don’t accept what those people are doing. - 1 Corinthians 11 vs 2 - 16
Let's get the facts straight as far as the Old Law of Moses on this issue of head coverings. The Law of Moses never required that men not wear head coverings at all. And the same Law never in fact required women to cover their heads. Yes, it was customary for women in the region to do so but that tradition was never of God and as such should not have been **added** as though it were. Recall, it sin against God to add, remove, or change His Law, Old or New. undecided

Let's then proceed to look at the entries in the passage

Verse 2 - 3 claims that the man is the head of a woman. This is not true in Jesus Christ given that Jesus Christ made clear in His Gospel that He alone is Head/Authority/Master over the males and females in His Kingdom. So, the claim made there violates Jesus Christ
Verse 4 which claims a man disgraces himself if his head, while prophesying(an act that is linked to the Old Law) or praying, is covered does not work at all when put against the Old Law and the New Law. So, I am not certain why Paul introduced this at all.
Verse 5 equally contains an outrageous claim that is not linked with that contained in either the Old Law or the New Law.
Verse 6 claims that it is shameful for a woman to cut off or shave her hair. The Old Law does not say anything of the such neither did Jesus Christ mention a woman's hair in all.
Verse 7 of course means absolutely nothing when you consider the facts of things. The only man who was made in the image of God was Adam. Eve was made from that one man, and both of them attested to be of good quality by God. Recall, that God is good, and He deemed Adam and also Eve to be of good quality as He made them. Now, after Adam fell, every man, and woman born from them were born under the curse— not good. So, the claim that a man— not Adam, in this case,— is God's glory is not of Scripture at all. So, the claims that follow in verses 8 - 10 all fall short of Scripture. Eve was never commanded to cover her head in the presence of the Angels in the Garden, so I am not even certain where this would have worked. undecided
● The argument he then goes on to present in verses 11 through 15 based on these ideas that fall flat when put up against Scripture, makes little to no sense when you truly examine it all as one piece as it all should be.

So, in summary, what is contained in Galatians 3 makes sense when put beside that which is Jesus Christ. However, what is contained in the passage of 1 Corinthians 11 vs 1 - 15 failed woefully when put up against that which is written in Scripture from even the beginning — Genesis — to the end— Revelations. undecided
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 2:23am On May 02
safarifarms:
■ The grammar used for the childbearing in connection with salvation (in the translations that are perceived to mean so) do not seem straight forward enough for me to believe it means what it's perceived to mean. For me I don't take doctrine from one scripture especially where many other scriptures hold a different view to that. In this case several other writings of Paul himself suggests otherwise in very clear terms unlike this one that looks a bit ambiguous (and interpreted differently by some translations).
Paul's consistent teaching on Salvation is through grace and not of any works (not even child bearing which is ridiculous).
■ Concerning the issue of Women being treated as less than men, it appears it had to do with a particular situation of many false teachings from which he formed a personal opinion based on (well a flimsy scenario of) Eve being deceived. And he even made it obvious that it's his own opinion though he appeared to also encourage Timothy to do same.
■ But if you look at Romans 16:1-16 where he salutes coworkers in the faith, majority of them were women.
1. Jesus Christ warned His followers not to take teachings from men but from Him. He did insist that He alone is Teacher to all those who belong to Him reiterating what God Himself said of His new agreement in Jeremiah 31 vs 31 - 34. So, literally cherry-picking through Paul's "doctrines" is already problematic when you consider what Jesus Christ, and the Father —YHWH— said. undecided

2. Even that statement is problematic since Jesus Christ did not say there was only one Salvation. If you read through the Gospels, you would realize that the first Salvation which is the salvation by Grace, only came with the guarantee of Eternal Life - John 3 vs 1 - 18. There is a second Salvation that is only obtainable by way of Works and that only guarantees Eternal Reward(Heaven) to those who meet the requirement; Eternal Damnation(Hell) is guaranteed to those others who fall short of the Works requirement - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. So, again, making the views of Paul more than what they amount to playing around with one's life and time here on earth. undecided

3. When it comes to Jesus Christ, under no circumstances is any of His followers to treat men and women differently.
▶ In John 15 vs 7 - 12, Jesus Christ called on His followers to abide in Him so that He abide in them.
▶ Jesus Christ equally informed His followers that the Kingdom of God is inside and all around those who are born-again.
▶ Jesus Christ also warned them not to try to store Old wine in New wine skin meaning they are not to attempt to appease others by abiding with the Old Laws when they are meant to stand firm in the New Law instead.
So, when you read that a follower of Jesus Christ held an opinion that was counter to that proclaimed by Jesus Christ, it should raise alarms as that is a violation of the Law that is Jesus Christ. undecided

4. The salutes in Romans 16 vs 1 - 16 do not change the fact that Paul could have equally saluted them all while holding on to the notion that women were lesser beings than men. All across religion today, women are saluted in all corners yet women are still not regarded as equals by the same men even then. So why would you assume that by offering salutations to a crowd of mostly women, Paul was somehow absolved of opinions expressed in other parts of his letters? grin
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by gohf: 9:36am On May 02
Emusan:


Let me only address this part.

Jesus who called Apostle Paul Himself didn't discover and correct all what Paul taught in contradiction to His own teachings but left it for Nigerian Apostles to discover these erroneous teachings thousand years later.

That's strange!

Well, if you think Jesus who called Paul didn't know about all his teachings. Then you don't have any options than to agree that Paul was never called by Jesus Christ.
lol you see eh my people who like me like to stroll down and read comments, come o, this ks the comment/response you're looking for in case you strolled past it 😁😁😁😁

1,000likes
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by gohf: 9:46am On May 02
Kobo the one and only junkie 🤣 I guess in your Jesus Christ, women are encouraged to forgo childbearing altogether to obtain blessings from God.

So kobo is your mother cursed from giving birth to you?
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by StillDtruth: 10:15am On May 02
Amotolongbo:
Paul was just a character invented by the Roman to control the people

They raised him up to control the people yet they inprisoned him for doing that? Have sense naaa
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by StillDtruth: 10:16am On May 02
immortalcrown:
The same haters of Paul are against the idea of women heading homes and being richer than husbands.

Oh ooh!
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by StillDtruth: 10:24am On May 02
Daejumong:

Jesus however made women feel loved and appreciated in a patriarchal society like Israel. He had female followers , he had his feet bathed with expensive perfume by a woman, he saved an adulteress from being stoned publicly and also sat at the well with a philandering woman.

What does feeling loved have to do with God's Temple? Were the other 11 brothers not loved when God chose only the Levites to administer the temple?

Even at that did God not still dictate the type of Levite who can administer His Temple?

You people don't fear God that is why you people always do things and put things which God did not ask you to put.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by safarifarms(m): 10:39am On May 02
Kobojunkie:
1. Jesus Christ warned His followers not to take teachings from men but from Him. He did insist that He alone is Teacher to all those who belong to Him reiterating what God Himself said of His new agreement in Jeremiah 31 vs 31 - 34. So, literally cherry-picking through Paul's "doctrines" is already problematic when you consider what Jesus Christ, and the Father —YHWH— said. undecided

2. Even that statement is problematic since Jesus Christ did not say there was only one Salvation. If you read through the Gospels, you would realize that the first Salvation which is the salvation by Grace, only came with the guarantee of Eternal Life - John 3 vs 1 - 18. There is a second Salvation that is only obtainable by way of Works and that only guarantees Eternal Reward(Heaven) to those who meet the requirement; Eternal Damnation(Hell) is guaranteed to those others who fall short of the Works requirement - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. So, again, making the views of Paul more than what they amount to playing around with one's life and time here on earth. undecided

3. When it comes to Jesus Christ, under no circumstances is any of His followers to treat men and women differently.
▶ In John 15 vs 7 - 12, Jesus Christ called on His followers to abide in Him so that He abide in them.
▶ Jesus Christ equally informed His followers that the Kingdom of God is inside and all around those who are born-again.
▶ Jesus Christ also warned them not to try to store Old wine in New wine skin meaning they are not to attempt to appease others by abiding with the Old Laws when they are meant to stand firm in the New Law instead.
So, when you read that a follower of Jesus Christ held an opinion that was counter to that proclaimed by Jesus Christ, it should raise alarms as that is a violation of the Law that is Jesus Christ. undecided

4. The salutes in Romans 16 vs 1 - 16 do not change the fact that Paul could have equally saluted them all while holding on to the notion that women were lesser beings than men. All across religion today, women are saluted in all corners yet women are still not regarded as equals by the same men even then. So why would you assume that by offering salutations to a crowd of mostly women, Paul was somehow absolved of opinions expressed in other parts of his letters? grin

1. There are several admonitions that came out of specific scenarios and doesn't necessarily mean they should be applied to all scenarios. In the book of Mark, Jesus queried why someone called him good and said no one is good except God.
Mark 10:18 (New International Version)
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
Did Jesus really mean that he was not good?
In Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-16, Jesus says "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all."
So would it mean that people who go teach as Jesus instructed can't be called Teachers?

The passage you are making reference to (Matt 23) says ;
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Jesus also said do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Would that mean you can't call your biological father 'father'? The context with which Jesus made that statement had to do with the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. The earlier part of the passage gives the context.

Matt 23
1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

He was dealing with hypocrites who were not practicing what they were teaching. But he later instructed his disciples to teach everyone.

Jesus mainly taught for just 3 years and even said he has many things to say but his disciples didn't have the capacity to bear them at the time.
John 16:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

So there's more to just what Jesus while he was here.

So it's not only what Jesus teaches that should be listened to. However, while I'll typically take what Jesus says without looking for collaboration, I won't do same for what any ordinary human being says. The reason is, while Jesus is infallible, all men are fallible. We can see that come to play in the early Church where they initially believed everyone must be circumcised and also thought the Gospel was for the Jews only.

But then again the dispensation with which Jesus lived and taught was the dispensation of the Law which also influenced this teachings as the new testament did not yet come into effect.

Galatians 4:4 (New International Version)
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law

Hebrews 9:16-17 (King James Version)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The teachings of Paul and New Testament focused but then again these people (Paul and the other Apostles inclusive) did not fully understand the New testament at once and they initially mixed the two and kept making changes as their knowledge increased.

2. I won't agree with you about two types of salvation. Salvation is only by grace. But when you are saved, you are called to good works.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.

Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

This portion says you should do the work having at the back of your mind that you will receive an inheritance not that it's the work that would bring the inheritance but that since an inheritance is waiting it should give you more encouragement to do it.

Titus 2:7 (NKJV)
7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility,

Titus 2:14 (NKJV)
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Again this portion shows that all those whom he died for should be zealous for good works

Titus 3:8 (NKJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Another emphasis that believers should maintain good works
In summary, God is love and whoever says he loves God should also love.

1 John 4:8,19,20
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

So showing love is a fruit of salvation and not a way to salvation.

The Jews had the laws of Moses which was based on works but they couldn't obtain salvation out of it because they couldn't mix faith with it.


Heb 4: 2 (AMP)
For indeed we have had the good news [of salvation] preached to us, just as the Israelites also [when the good news of the promised land came to them]; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united with faith [in God] by those who heard.

The laws were meant to be kept out of faith (believe in God) but they tried keeping the laws without believing in God. But Jesus died and nailed the law to the cross so that part is taken away leaving only the part of faith for which we are saved by grace.

Colossians 2:14 (Living Bible)
14 and blotted out the charges proved against you, the list of his commandments which you had not obeyed. He took this list of sins and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ’s cross.

3 & 4: Like I said earlier, there was a context for which Paul held the views and made the suggestions he did at the time and he may not have been enlightened enough at the time. Even other Apostles changed their views on certain things after they got more understanding. This could be the reason he now worked with more women as seen by this salutation that had more women in the list.

I can't write off Paul's insightful teachings because of a few mistakes he made. And instead of what you termed Cherry picking, I believe in establishing doctrine at the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses.
2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Like I said before, all men are fallible. So doctrine shouldn't be from one instance especially when it has to do with men.

For instance, Job after writing 41 chapters, in his last chapter he now wrote what looks like a disclaimer with regret for saying things he didn't know.

Job 42 (New International Version)
1. Then Job replied to the Lord: 2 “I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”

So what do I make of the 41 chapters that he wrote in his time of ignorance?

I always remind myself that even though the Bible was written by inspiration, they were actually written by men who are fallible.

On another note, I want to commend you for having a meaningful discussion devoid of insults or disrespect as often experienced with religious people who often expect that their views must be forced down on others.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Amotolongbo(f): 1:29pm On May 02
StillDtruth:


They raised him up to control the people yet they inprisoned him for doing that? Have sense naaa
As if this thing understands what sense is
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Steep(m): 1:48pm On May 02
safarifarms:


1. There are several admonitions that came out of specific scenarios and doesn't necessarily mean they should be applied to all scenarios. In the book of Mark, Jesus queried why someone called him good and said no one is good except God.
Mark 10:18 (New International Version)
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
Did Jesus really mean that he was not good?
In Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-16, Jesus says "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all."
So would it mean that people who go teach as Jesus instructed can't be called Teachers?

The passage you are making reference to (Matt 23) says ;
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Jesus also said do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Would that mean you can't call your biological father 'father'? The context with which Jesus made that statement had to do with the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. The earlier part of the passage gives the context.

Matt 23
1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

He was dealing with hypocrites who were not practicing what they were teaching. But he later instructed his disciples to teach everyone.

Jesus mainly taught for just 3 years and even said he has many things to say but his disciples didn't have the capacity to bear them at the time.
John 16:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

So there's more to just what Jesus while he was here.

So it's not only what Jesus teaches that should be listened to. However, while I'll typically take what Jesus says without looking for collaboration, I won't do same for what any ordinary human being says. The reason is, while Jesus is infallible, all men are fallible. We can see that come to play in the early Church where they initially believed everyone must be circumcised and also thought the Gospel was for the Jews only.

But then again the dispensation with which Jesus lived and taught was the dispensation of the Law which also influenced this teachings as the new testament did not yet come into effect.

Galatians 4:4 (New International Version)
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law

Hebrews 9:16-17 (King James Version)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The teachings of Paul and New Testament focused but then again these people (Paul and the other Apostles inclusive) did not fully understand the New testament at once and they initially mixed the two and kept making changes as their knowledge increased.

2. I won't agree with you about two types of salvation. Salvation is only by grace. But when you are saved, you are called to good works.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.

Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

This portion says you should do the work having at the back of your mind that you will receive an inheritance not that it's the work that would bring the inheritance but that since an inheritance is waiting it should give you more encouragement to do it.

Titus 2:7 (NKJV)
7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility,

Titus 2:14 (NKJV)
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Again this portion shows that all those whom he died for should be zealous for good works

Titus 3:8 (NKJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Another emphasis that believers should maintain good works
In summary, God is love and whoever says he loves God should also love.

1 John 4:8,19,20
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

So showing love is a fruit of salvation and not a way to salvation.

The Jews had the laws of Moses which was based on works but they couldn't obtain salvation out of it because they couldn't mix faith with it.


Heb 4: 2 (AMP)
For indeed we have had the good news [of salvation] preached to us, just as the Israelites also [when the good news of the promised land came to them]; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because it was not united with faith [in God] by those who heard.

The laws were meant to be kept out of faith (believe in God) but they tried keeping the laws without believing in God. But Jesus died and nailed the law to the cross so that part is taken away leaving only the part of faith for which we are saved by grace.

Colossians 2:14 (Living Bible)
14 and blotted out the charges proved against you, the list of his commandments which you had not obeyed. He took this list of sins and destroyed it by nailing it to Christ’s cross.

3 & 4: Like I said earlier, there was a context for which Paul held the views and made the suggestions he did at the time and he may not have been enlightened enough at the time. Even other Apostles changed their views on certain things after they got more understanding. This could be the reason he now worked with more women as seen by this salutation that had more women in the list.

I can't write off Paul's insightful teachings because of a few mistakes he made. And instead of what you termed Cherry picking, I believe in establishing doctrine at the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses.
2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Like I said before, all men are fallible. So doctrine shouldn't be from one instance especially when it has to do with men.

For instance, Job after writing 41 chapters, in his last chapter he now wrote what looks like a disclaimer with regret for saying things he didn't know.

Job 42 (New International Version)
1. Then Job replied to the Lord: 2 “I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’
5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. 6 Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”

So what do I make of the 41 chapters that he wrote in his time of ignorance?

I always remind myself that even though the Bible was written by inspiration, they were actually written by men who are fallible.

On another note, I want to commend you for having a meaningful discussion devoid of insults or disrespect as often experienced with religious people who often expect that their views must be forced down on others.
what are the mistakes in Paul's teachings?
If Paul commended some women as fellow laborers does that mean those women were leaders in the church?
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by safarifarms(m): 1:57pm On May 02
Steep:
what are the mistakes in Paul's teachings?
If Paul commended some women as fellow laborers does that mean those women were leaders in the church?

Follow the trail of the messages to understand me better.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Steep(m): 2:23pm On May 02
safarifarms:

Follow the trail of the messages to understand me better.
I don't see any mistake in what Paul wrote.
There is no correlation between Paul commending those women and they being leaders of the church.
Many women worked with Paul it does not mean they were leaders in the church.
You called Paul's statement when he said "the woman was the one decieved" as flimsy excuse why you yourself are the one offering filmsy excuse to throw off scripture.

Peter clearly stated
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This same Peter endorses Paul's letters as scripture.

The scriptures has to be rightly expanded, not twisting and denying it.

I have read all your submissions and they are watery.
When Paul said there is neither male and female in christ he s talking of salvation this is not talking of the different roles every Christian has. It is wrong to twist scripture to try to personal bias and sentiment.
Note Paul never says a woman can't evangelize, other serve in the ministry only she cannot usurp authority over a man in the church. A woman can lead and teach other women. Titus 2 vv 3 -4.
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 2:41pm On May 02
safarifarms:
■ There are several admonitions that came out of specific scenarios and doesn't necessarily mean they should be applied to all scenarios. In the book of Mark, Jesus queried why someone called him good and said no one is good except God.
Mark 10:18 (New International Version)
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.
Did Jesus really mean that he was not good?
■ In Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 16:15-16, Jesus says "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all."
So would it mean that people who go teach as Jesus instructed can't be called Teachers? The passage you are making reference to (Matt 23) says ;
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
■ Jesus also said do not call anyone on earth 'father' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Would that mean you can't call your biological father 'father'? The context with which Jesus made that statement had to do with the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. The earlier part of the passage gives the context.
Matt 23
1. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
■ He was dealing with hypocrites who were not practicing what they were teaching. But he later instructed his disciples to teach everyone.
Jesus mainly taught for just 3 years and even said he has many things to say but his disciples didn't have the capacity to bear them at the time.
John 16:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
So there's more to just what Jesus while he was here..
..
1. Yes, Jesus Christ meant it that He is indeed not the standard of God; Rather, the Father is the standard of Good, the one who approves all men, including Jesus Christ, of Righteousness(good). Jesus Christ instead said that He is the Father's Way, the Father's Truth, and the Father's Life in John 14 vs 6. undecided
7 The Lord is good. He is a safe place to go to in times of trouble. He takes care of those who trust him. - Nahum 1 vs 7
...
17 Everything the Lord does is good. Everything he does shows how loyal he is.
18 The Lord is near to everyone who sincerely calls to him for help.
19 He listens to his followers and does what they want. He answers their prayers and saves them.
20 The Lord protects everyone who loves him, but he destroys all who do evil.
21 I will praise the Lord! Let everyone praise his holy name forever and ever! - Psalm 145 vs 17 - 21
Check out the following Link for a more complete list of the differences between Jesus Christ and the Father https://www.nairaland.com/7110397/gospel-minddump#112519360

2. As Jesus Christ instructed, they are indeed to go and teach others to obey the exact same commandments and teachings He gave to them — His Law. He also instructed them not to teach their own ideas/doctrines and traditions using His name. He warned them that curses awaited those who would use His name to teach what are their own ideas/doctrines and traditions which He proclaimed were lies that were against Him. So, yes, when Jesus Christ sent them out, He didn't send them out as teachers but as His servants to do His bidding and His bidding alone. undecided

3. Recall that Jesus Christ Himself lived His life in direct submission to the Will of His Father, The Law of Moses which happened to be the Constitutional Law in the nation of Israel(and Judah) in the Land of Canaan at that time. And Jesus Christ made it abundantly clear that He did not come to abolish or change the existing Law. Rather, what Jesus Christ did was bring to the people the New agreement/Law/Will of God which was promised by God through the Prophets. Jesus Christ is the embodiment of the New Law and agreement, God's Will in the Kingdom of God. So the context of His teachings was not the Old Law of Moses, but the New Agreement and the Kingdom of God which He, Jesus Christ embodies. Yes, even as He lived His very existence in submission to the Will of His Father which is the Old Law of Moses, Jesus Christ taught to His disciples, and those who would hear Him — not to the people of the Old Law, and especially not to the Pharisees and Sadducees— God's New Will and Law. Therefore, the context of all of His teachings — The Gospel and Law — was not the existing nation of Israel(and Judah) where God's Old agreement is but rather the Kingdom of God where God's New Law(and Will) is. undecided

So, when Jesus Christ asked that none of His followers call any man father here on earth, He, Jesus Christ meant that no man is to, in His name, and the name of His Kingdom, call any man Father. undecided

4. I am afraid this is not the case at all. Jesus Christ was not sent to deal with anything. Yes, there were hypocrites in the land at the land; there has never really been a time in the land when there weren't any of those. Go back to the time when Moses had to lead the people of Israel through the desert to see. These people were stiffnecked from even then but that never stopped or stood in the way of God's plan, not even Jesus Christ. undecided

Jesus Christ came as God's New Will and Covenant in addition to heralding the end of the time of the Old Law in the Land - the final Judgment of God against the nation of Israel(and Judah) in the Land of Canaan. He did not come to fight or battle with the hypocrites and those who refuse/reject God. He came to deliver the new Law and He concluded this when He announced on the cross that it was finished — mission accomplished. He even went ahead and told you that His Word was everlasting — unchanging — meaning no man had the power to add/change or remove from any of that which He had declared and given to His followers. He is God's Law after all and it is against God to change or modify His Law in any way or form. undecided

If you review all that Jesus Christ said of the Spirit of God whom He would ask His Father to send to those who love Him - John 14 vs 15 - 26 & John 15 vs 26 - 27 & John 16 vs 4 - 16 - you would come to understand how and why it is erroneous to even perceive that the same Spirit of God would teach an idea that contravenes Jesus Christ in any way. God is not a God of confusion. The Spirit of Truth is submitted in His Will to Jesus Christ and as such would never teach any idea that contradicts or contravenes Jesus Christ. Yes, He teaches so many things including the Law of the Prophets to explain all that Jesus Christ taught to His followers but He would never teach any idea that does not conform or agree with Jesus Christ. Again, because He is the same Spirit of Truth that is Jesus Christ. undecided
Re: Was Apostle Paul Anti-woman ? Did His Teachings On Women Contradict Christ? by Kobojunkie: 3:21pm On May 02
safarifarms:
So it's not only what Jesus teaches that should be listened to. However, while I'll typically take what Jesus says without looking for collaboration, I won't do same for what any ordinary human being says. The reason is, while Jesus is infallible, all men are fallible. We can see that come to play in the early Church where they initially believed everyone must be circumcised and also thought the Gospel was for the Jews only.
■ But then again the dispensation with which Jesus lived and taught was the dispensation of the Law which also influenced this teachings as the new testament did not yet come into effect.
■ Galatians 4:4 (New International Version)
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law
Hebrews 9:16-17 (King James Version)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
The teachings of Paul and New Testament focused but then again these people (Paul and the other Apostles inclusive) did not fully understand the New testament at once and they initially mixed the two and kept making changes as their knowledge increased.
I won't agree with you about two types of salvation. Salvation is only by grace. But when you are saved, you are called to good works.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them.
Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.
This portion says you should do the work having at the back of your mind that you will receive an inheritance not that it's the work that would bring the inheritance but that since an inheritance is waiting it should give you more encouragement to do it.
Titus 2:7 (NKJV)
7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility,
Titus 2:14 (NKJV)
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Again this portion shows that all those whom he died for should be zealous for good works
Titus 3:8 (NKJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.
Another emphasis that believers should maintain good works In summary, God is love and whoever says he loves God should also love.
1. Therein lies the problem at the core of the belief of most who seek out religion, this idea that Jesus Christ is not enough. How can the Words of the one who is God's very Truth — the Words out of God's mouth — not be enough information for one to receive Salvation? How can God's Law be considered incomplete when it comes to containing the terms and conditions — all that is required — for one to obtain the salvation(s) offered by God? Doesn't that then mean God is incompetent and hence untrustworthy? undecided

2. Jesus Christ was influenced by the Law into doing what exactly? What in the world does that even mean? Why would something bad come from Jesus Christ submitting Himself to the Old Law of Moses which is equally God's perfect Will in God's Nation of Israel in the Land of Canaan? Sorry, I am lost at this point! shocked shocked shocked shocked

3. Just so you know, if you wish to understand Paul, you first need to be grounded in Jesus Christ, and then the ideas expressed by Paul in His Letters would make more sense. undecided

4. This statement fails when you consider that all the sheep and goats spoken of in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46 were all born again. (They all had eternal life.) In Matthew 24 vs 13 and Mark 13 vs 13, Jesus Christ taught that only those who stand faithful through it all would be saved(the second salvation). He explained this by way of several parables including the parable of the Good and Trusted Servant. Jesus Christ even admonished His followers to seek first the Kingdom of God(Holiness) and then God's Righteousness, to have all these things — the blessings and rewards of the Kingdom of God including Heaven— added to them. There is a seeking required much the same as the initial seek required for the first salvation. Not everyone who is born-again(first salvation) will make the second salvation. That is clear as far as the Gospel is concerned. undecided

Well, Paul may have described the second salvation in the form of an inheritance but it is a salvation as Jesus Christ instead put it. Either Heaven(Eternal Reward) or Hell(Eternal Damnation) awaits those who are born-again, and it is only earned by the Works done here on earth. undecided

Yes, God is Love but God made it abundantly clear that His Love belongs only to those who obey His teachings and commandments; Those who do not obey His teachings and command will be punished by God. This has been the same way since the time of Adam and remains the same even in Jesus Christ. https://www.nairaland.com/8078671/what-does-god-hate-esau#129739870 undecided

As for works of Righteousness, well they are detailed in the commandments explained in the context of Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46. Those 6 commands are the keys to the Gates of Heaven which Jesus Christ is written to have promised to Peter and all of His followers. It is only those who have attained righteousness through living life in continuous submission and obedience to the teachings and commandments of Jesus Christ that are capable of carrying out those works as a result. Those commands do not simply happen on their own. Just as Jesus Christ went out doing good works everywhere He went, His followers are also required to go out doing the same if they are to gain Heaven(Eternal Reward) at the end of the day. undecided

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